Podcast: Flex on Them Fridays with Perry Hollins

It's back-to-school season, and we are excited to welcome forth grade teacher Perry Hollins for our latest episode of Teachers in America. Perry teaches at Oakton Elementary School in the Evanston/Skokie School District just outside of Chicago in Illinois.

A full transcript of the episode appears below; it has been edited for clarity.

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Lish Mitchell: Welcome to Teachers in America, a production of HMH, hosted by our Senior Director of Community Engagement, Noelle Morris. I'm Lish Mitchell.

Sixteen-year teaching veteran Perry Hollins joins us on our newest episode of the podcast. Perry teaches fourth grade in the Evanston/Skokie School District in Illinois, and has spent the past 11 years infusing an African-centered pedagogy into the curriculum.

Before becoming a teacher, Perry worked in radio and television in roles that equipped him with communication skills and creative instructional approaches for the classroom. He earned a BFA in Broadcast Media from Morris College, and a master’s degree in teaching from Northeastern Illinois University. He also earned an MS in educational psychology from Capella University, with a focus on achievement motivation in Black boys.

Perry utilizes his education to create a culturally responsive, project-based learning environment for independent, flexible thinkers.

Now, here are Perry and Noelle.

Noelle Morris: Hey Perry, welcome to Teachers in America. So excited to get a chance to meet with you. You live outside of Chicago in Evanston. Tell me a little bit about how you got started in teaching and how you ended up in Evanston, and all of that good introductory stuff.

Perry Hollins: Well, I have always been a person that's gravitated towards children. Even as a child, you would always find me with the younger children. I remember vividly being in church at nine years old. For some reason, I would always gravitate toward the one, two, and three-year-olds and play with them, and they would always gravitate toward me. And that just became my life. But I never thought about teaching per se. I just felt like it was just who I was. I initially started off in radio and television.

I remember in high school just listening to the radio all the time and feeling like, "I want to be a DJ. I want to be an on air personality one day." So I went to school and got a degree in broadcasting down in South Carolina, and I was working at a radio station out there. I had gotten into radio even prior to graduating from college. I was down there for about a year and a half working in radio, and then there was a job at the local CBS affiliate station out there.

I was an evening assignment editor for that CBS affiliate station in Columbia, South Carolina, and I did that for about a year. Then my father passed away, and I came back to Chicago for the funeral, and my godfather was like, "Things are changing. Your mom is alone here," and things like that. I was like, "I'm trying to build my career out there." And he was like, "Well, how about you stay with me until you find a job in radio or television? Get on your feet. You'll be close to your mom." I was like, okay, that makes sense.

That's how I got back to Chicago. I was working at a couple of radio stations. One out in Janesville, Wisconsin, which fed into the Madison, Wisconsin market, which is the University of Wisconsin, I believe. I worked in Hammond, Indiana, at a gospel station that fed into the Chicago market as well. Then I got laid off. They were going through some changes at that radio station. I was like, I'm in between jobs, so I'll substitute.

Noelle: I'll teach.

Perry: Right. I was like, "I'll just earn some extra money until I get back on my feet, until I find a job, whatever." I went into the classroom...why did that happen? Fifteen years later, here I am, still in the classroom. It's been an exciting journey. But when I first went into the classroom, I remember the teacher did not have lessons that made sense to me. What I did was—and this was a fifth-grade class, this was one of my first classes that I was subbing in—I went online, and I just downloaded lyrics to a song.

I made sure that it was developmentally appropriate of course, for fifth grade, and we just sat and analyzed those rap lyrics to the song. I think it was like a Will Smith song, or it was a Common song. I believe it was Common. I can't remember exactly what it was. Maybe it was "The Light." But we did that. The engagement that I received from the students, they were like, "You're the best sub ever. Yeah!" I was like, okay, I just made that up on the fly. Is that all it takes? I've been in love with it ever since.

I think at the heart of everything, I'm trying to figure out this teaching and learning process. How is it that I can have information that I understand and disseminate it in a way that makes sense to the learner? I mean, that's been my passion, pretty much if I had to nail it down.

Noelle: And probably when you think about it, going back to how you had to communicate with one, two, and three-year-olds to make that connection, it's just how you function and how you think around the value of the different ways to communicate. One of the things, Perry, that's interesting, and I tend to think every teacher will always find connections, but I too started my career substitute teaching and surviving and figuring things out because I didn't have, lots of times, [any] lesson plans.

I want to ask you on that day where you did that, [and] the kids were like, "You're the best sub," how many of them said, "Will you be back tomorrow?" I mean, because that's when you know you've made that hook.

Perry: Yeah, no, that's exactly the case. The administrators in the building saw that connection right away, and so they were asking me to come back. But one of the things that I remember as well is that the students in the classroom started checking one another because I remember there was one student in the class that was trying to divert us from the subject. I just remember other students like, "Would you stop? Would you give him a chance?" The fact that they were taking over and holding one another accountable, I was like, this is how it works.

Noelle: Yup. They're like, "Dude, cut it out. The man's trying to teach."

Perry: Exactly. Exactly. That interest level was there, and I was like, okay. But I think it was by accident that I grabbed the lyrics, but it was something that I think was intrinsically motivating within them to know that I was young too. I was like 25, 26 at the time. It wasn't a large age gap. A lot of what I was listening to, their parents were listening to, and they were listening to. So that [was a] connection, and I still knew a lot of the lingo and language and slang of it. You know what I mean?

I could relate to them in that way, and so that built a relationship that I think is the cornerstone of effective teaching. You just have to really connect with them on their level.

Noelle: I want to ask you [about] broadcasting and radio and how much you focus on your voice. Did you have a signature like sign-off or way that you had practiced your voice that is a skill you carry today when you're about to teach something new or try a different lesson?

Perry: Most definitely. Most definitely, but it's natural. The fluctuation of the voice. All I have on the radio is my voice to entertain and inform. I knew that if I was going to capture the audience, the fluctuation of my voice would be the same as me moving around the classroom or moving around the space. Being able to do those things holds their attention in that way, especially when the different modalities in which you would use to engage someone [are] limited.

You just have to focus on what it is that you can do and utilize that in multi-dimensional ways, if that makes sense.

Noelle: Totally. I mean, it's just a matter of that there's an element of when you think about the art of teaching that I've always thought there [are] moments that are also entertainment, the skills of knowing when to go up, when to go down, when to make it sound like, "No, there's got to be something so important that we're—"

Perry: Oh, you got it. You got it. There it is.

Noelle: They're like, "Wait! I've got to get in closer." I can tell you knew everything to do also. Because in the first years of teaching, and especially substituting, it really is about surviving that day because you're hoping, and you need that to be called tomorrow because that's your income until you find your first job. You went to a historically Black college?

Perry: I did.

Noelle: Okay. So, leaving Chicago and going to South Carolina: was that something, too, that was always part of your decision-making as a young kid?

Perry: No. There's a story behind that as well. I didn't do too well in school. I couldn't make connections...I don't know why I'm feeling this way right now, but just give me a moment. Just give me a moment. I apologize.

Noelle: No, it's okay.

Perry: I just couldn't make strong connections. I had two teachers that I believe that I made strong connections with. Part of it is I wasn't inspired to think beyond the moment. There wasn't enough, "Here's what's happening outside of your little world and how it connects to your little world." There wasn't enough of that. I did have a seventh-grade teacher, Ms. Greene, who inspired me in one way. There was one situation where she had a book by the quantum physicist. I can't remember his name right now, but it was on her desk, and it was way above my reading level.

But I was so interested in the universe and stars and how the world was. I was like, "Can I use this? Can I read this book?" And she knew that the book was way above my reading level, but she was like, "Sure. Take it home." I only read the first paragraph, and that was all. And that took me forever to get through. I had no idea really what I read, but I knew there was something there, and it sparked my curiosity to want to know more. And that, wow, the world is bigger than just me running up and down the block and my neighborhood.

It's bigger than my own little wants and desires. I started getting curious about the world around me and how it worked. Science was my first introduction [to] learning, and I think that's for most children really. They just get curious about the world around them and how it works. Once I understood as a teacher how the social sciences can work in the same way as our physical sciences and in being able to capture the imagination of a learner, I was like, oh, this is good stuff.

I've incorporated a lot of the social sciences in the same way that we would teach about the physical sciences into my practice, my instructional practice. I think one of the things, and this is in retrospect, thinking back on it, but I think one of the biggest difficulties for me was that I noticed differences before I was able to notice commonalities. I say that because living in Evanston, I usually say it's a microcosm of the United States in that it's very diverse but highly segregated in a lot of ways.

Evanston is working on it, but it's also a national problem that needs to be addressed as well, and I think we need that double-pronged approach to it. But I think that because I was noticing differences first, it ostracized me from engaging and asking those questions that really were driving my understanding of life. I shut down because there was no room for me to make a connection with what was happening. I wasn't a dude that always got into trouble. I wasn't affluent. I was a lower middle-class student who came to school.

I didn't have on the best pair of shoes. I wasn't wearing the nicest clothes. Those were judgments that were being passed on me. I didn't know all of the latest trends that were happening or whatever. My mom was very conservative in a lot of ways. When I entered into a classroom space, I could only see differences. I'm like, where did that come from? Why wasn't I able to see the connections between us so that it would drive me to want to reach out and drive others to want to reach in? Where were the mirrors? We talk about this idea of windows and mirrors.

There were a lot of windows, but there weren't a lot of mirrors in my early education. To get back to the point of HBCU, it wasn't until my senior year in high school that I took an African American history course. It was the first time where I connected with the teacher in a way where I just admired him. I just admired him. It had nothing to do with anything else, but I was going to listen to him because I just admired him as a human being. He was just this intelligent Black man, and he got me involved in the local chapter of the NAACP here in Evanston.

I attended some of the meetings as a senior. That was really the first time where I felt like I was connecting my education to the larger world and even the local world, where my education became personal, it became local, and it became immediate. Up until that point, I just was just going in and out of school. And then, by that time, it was senior year. I didn't really know anything about getting into college. I sent out some applications, and Morris College in Sumter, South Carolina, was the first college that responded—HBCU.

I grabbed my things. A friend of mine who graduated with me was going down to South Carolina to meet with his family. We hopped on the bus, and I was there. It was a really worthwhile experience in the sense of the relationships that I had made down there. And like I told you earlier, I knew that I wanted to get into radio and television. The college really didn't do that for me. It was a small historically Black college, Morris College.

I just went to the local radio station as a sophomore and told them I would do anything I needed to do to be a part of this company. I wanted to get into radio. Before I knew it, I was on the air doing the evening drive, which was like urban adult contemporary type music. And it was from 7:00 to 11:00. That's what drove me throughout college to even stay in college because I was like, okay, I know I need a degree. It just looks good for me to have a degree if I want to get into communications. But yeah, that was that.

Noelle: I'm laughing because I can imagine like the adults evening—

Perry: Right. Right.

Noelle: These are not my top five, but your top five.

Perry: Right, right. They had a local radio station there, and I was playing oldies as well. I got into a lot of music from the '60s and '70s through that radio station as well. It was a great experience, but it was a real-world experience. It was a practical experience, which I think is missing a lot of in education right now. I think COVID has woken us up to that as well.

Noelle: Get the facts and stay informed with IFE Quick Conversations. Hear from education industry leaders like Atlanta superintendent Dr. Lisa Herring as they cover school reopening and recovery. Learn more about the impact of culturally responsive education in the classroom and gain insights about education investing. Join the movement dedicated to promoting innovative ways to improve life outcomes for Black learners of all ages. Subscribe to “Innovation For Equity” on YouTube to access episodes and share with your network. IFE Quick Conversations are powered by Innovation For Equity and sponsored by HMH. Now, back to the episode.

Noelle: I just want to come back full circle. A bus from Chicago to South Carolina, I'm sure there are some stories there.

Perry: Oh yeah.

Noelle: But on the sense of finding a place, Perry, where there's going to be lots of mirrors, I'm just thinking, had to have been the moment you stepped on campus. A sense of calm which allowed you to now begin to think about your purpose, what you wanted to do next, and your future. Let's talk about that future part and what you were talking about as far as real-world application and your fourth graders.

Because I agree with you, during this pandemic, and even though 10 years ago people were talking about project-based learning, and I remember in the early 2000s, the 21st century, everybody jumping on that. But it's taken 20 years and a pandemic to have people think, "You know what? Our students can and should be having these real-world opportunities to tinker and problem solve and figure it out." What have you done during the pandemic to stimulate that and have that approach?

What are you hearing and seeing from your students as you begin to transition into what will become the next phase of the new norm?

Perry: I entered the teaching profession in 2005, which was the beginning of I believe No Child Left Behind. It was this high-stakes, standardized testing environment that I just was initiated into education around. It's been pretty much the same ever since. That's the dilemma I believe in a lot of ways for me, and I'm going to speak for myself, is that high-stakes testing and the standardization of learning have crippled what we believe to be research-based best practices that will move the needle, especially for Black and Brown children.

Teachers get into this dilemma. I get into this dilemma in the classroom where I'm wrestling with that idea of engagement versus preparation for standardized assessments. That battle is a cognitive dissonance type of thing, where I'm always like, okay, I know what is best for these children, but I have a responsibility to make sure that they are prepared with the skills and the standards necessary for success in life. But I cannot leave them behind in pursuit of those skills and standards. That's where I wrestled.

That's where the murky waters [are] for me. One way that I try to adjust to that, I just call it phenomena—I'll never forget. I had a principal that told me, and this stuck with me, and it continues to drive my thinking is that the standards are the curriculum. For me, when that light bulb went off that the standards are the curriculum, it revolutionized my practice in the sense that I didn't have to worry so much about the instructional materials that I was using.

When I say instructional materials, I mean the preassembled curriculums that come to us from other sources and follow it verbatim. There's a lot of great information in those curriculums that can be utilized, but to say, "Okay, on March 19th at 2:00, I need to be teaching this," I can't do that. That to me is a disservice to the immediate needs of the child, the local, personal, and immediate needs of the child that is standing and sitting in front of me. I owe it to them to prepare them for their life utilizing those standards.

Noelle: Then how have you managed and how do you work that out with your administration and the rest of your team?

Perry: I teach in a unique program, and the program is an African-Centered Curriculum. It's a magnet program within the larger school district. We have certain practices in our instruction that [are] a little bit different than the larger district. I do have a fourth-grade team that I meet with, but I also have an ACC team that I meet with. I have to balance the needs of the general ed curriculum and the needs of the African-Centered Curriculum.

There are five essential practices that we use within the African-Centered Curriculum that supersedes the practices of the gen ed curriculum. It's a little bit different for me. This was intentional. I wanted to get inside of a program where there was a little bit more flexibility in being able to meet the needs of our Black and Brown children. When this magnet program was introduced to District 65, I was like, oh, I need to be there.

Noelle: Is there an application for this magnet program within the school?

Perry: Yeah, there's an application process. But once you get in kindergarten, the goal is you'll just follow that trajectory in the ACC program through fifth grade. We do have students that come in throughout the grade levels, and it's usually just a recommendation.

Noelle: I find that just fascinating. If you started in 2010 with kindergartners and they were five, that first group is 15, 16. Can I ask if, in the last four years, particularly in this last year, has there been any adjustment to the curriculum or anything to really look in what is happening in our country today?

Perry: This is the struggle of education in general amidst a pandemic, trying to figure out what the next steps should be, but there is a lot of content out in the world that can be utilized as learning opportunities. With the Black Lives Matter movement, the death of George Floyd, the pandemic, and how it has what I believe brought to [the] surface the marginalization of Black and Brown people in the United States, these are opportunities for us to engage. I usually look for current events as a way to deepen our understanding around these issues.

One of the things that I like to do when students come onto the Zoom call is just to have a good 10–15 minutes of sharing time, and usually, conversations like this start to arise. I just take notes about what's going on in their world and what they're thinking about as they're discussing whatever it is that's on their mind. It's a sharing circle. That gives me a lot of leverage when I'm planning because I'm hitting things that are personal, local, and immediate. And then they're also seeing those mirrors like, "Oh, wait, we were just talking about this the other day."

I think one of the healthiest things that teachers can do at this time, regardless of what curriculum or what program, is listen. Listening is one of those culturally responsive practices that I believe that never really gets brought up, but just being a good listener and then turning around and helping the students to solve some of those dilemmas or problems or situations that [are] coming up for them.

Noelle: Now, I've heard you a few times reference personal, local, and immediate. Is that your personal framework, Perry? Is that a framework you've adopted?

Perry: I didn't invent the term. The term has already been out there, but I gravitated toward it and latched onto it because it makes sense to me. We should be thinking in personal, local, and immediate ways based in empathy and social justice and justice in general, whether it's environmental justice, whether it's economic justice, racial justice, social, whatever it is. To me, that is the approach. Because as I said earlier, I felt disconnected to my own education in a lot of ways, but it's no one's fault. It's just the historical narrative of the United States.

It's a systemic issue, right? I'm trying to counter that. That's my revolution. That's my personal thing that I believe is driving me. My purpose is to just make learning more personal, local, and immediate, and the children will take over. They'll take it over. But the hard part, like I said in the beginning, was navigating this space between high-stakes standardized testing, which is very true and real, and the idea of what is in the best interest of the students that are in front of me.

When I heard that the standards are the curriculum, it was the light bulb moment that I was like, "Oh, so the world is the content that we should be addressing."

Noelle: I lived in Chicago for a while. I was taught you're not supposed to actually say you live in Chicago. Sometimes I'd be like, "I live in Chicagoland."

Perry: You know it. You know it. You know it. That's right. People get offended.

Noelle: They do.

Perry: They get offended by that, right?

Noelle: They do.

Perry: I'm in Evanston, okay?

Noelle: They're like, "Noelle, you cannot claim Chicago. You live in Downers Grove." I said, "Well, financially, I have these reasons why I'm in Downers Grove." Anyway, I find Chicago as just—there's so much history and richness. You're right. Neighborhoods are such a part of that identity. I'm curious about you. I heard you mentioned you're still on Zoom, so I'm thinking you're still virtual.

Perry: We're in a hybrid space right now.

Noelle: Okay. Let's talk about this. You have your classroom, which I am venturing to guess your students walk in. It's part of the identity. How have you established that in the virtual space? How would you define that identity of the class and the students that you're working with remotely?

Perry: One of the things that I have learned is that remotely you can't play teacher. You can't have a teacher role. You really have to turn yourself into a learner and really get curious about what it is that you're teaching because they can smell fake a mile away. And if you're faking them out, their screens are going to go off. It happens all the time to me as well, and I'm like, okay, how can I make this at least more of an emotional connection? For me, it really boils down to engagement. When I first started, all students were remote.

Like I said, I would open it up with just sharing, and we would just talk. I would really get curious about their life. Tell me more. That built trust in them that like, "Oh, he actually is curious because he's using all of this time, in the beginning to just get curious about my life and the things that [are] going on." To the point now where they're sharing almost everything with me and what they're working on outside of the Zoom space. I have daily themes like Monday is Motivation Monday.

When I put up my Google Slides for Monday morning, it's always in the stream, something about what's keeping you motivated, what's going to keep you motivated throughout the week. I use that as content to teach, even though they're engaging with one another about topics. Sometimes the topics can get a little off where I'm like, "Okay, let's clean it up. What's going on here?" They're fourth graders, so sometimes they want to go on tangents, but I'm using that as content for instruction. I'm like, okay, I can bring these things back up at some point.

We have Talent Tuesday. What is your talent? Wednesday is Wisdom Wednesday, so we'll look at African Proverbs. Thursday is Black Excellence Thursday, and then Friday is Flex on Them. Just basically, what can you do that nobody else can do? Flex on them. What have you been learning this week?

Noelle: I love that.

Perry: What are you doing that keeps them engaged for the most part throughout the day? I can always go back. When I'm thinking about how I'm going to introduce a lesson, "What did Deandre say today? Oh, he said that he was going to his friend's house who has a very hyper dog and he's scared of dogs. All right. I'm going to try to figure out a way to incorporate that into compare and contrast. Compare two different types of dogs. Which one would you..." We're studying text structure or something like that.

And that way, there's an emotional connection to the content so that I can drive home those standards that I need to be addressing. I mean, it's a lot of that, because just trying to buy into the business as usual, "I'm the teacher and you're the student, I'm going to show you," and they're going to turn off their screen. You're just looking at a blank screen.

Noelle: I love that, Perry. I want to make sure I've got this correct: Friday is Flex on Them. I'm coming in like, you can't beat me at this.

Perry: Right. Right. I'm playing baseball now. I'm practicing, and I was able to catch three fly balls the day during practice. You're flexing on them. Who's next? That sort of thing. It's just something that keeps them thinking about what's going on personal, local, and immediate for them, and then I'm able to use that information in ways to keep the learning progressing around those standards that I need to be addressing as well.

Noelle: Community in a way that you're bringing that in that even though they have all been remote together, they are a community.

Perry: That is the bottom line. If you don't have a community where they feel like they can open up their mic and have conversations with one another, with me present or not, and in a healthy and constructive way, then I'm not really doing much of anything because that is really the point I believe of education, to begin with, is for them to bring out themselves and for others to be able to do the same. We have construction of new knowledge based off of all of that. I don't want to present it as something that is like it's working like a charm, but that is the goal.

Noelle: Yeah, we're always in the process and getting better and showing up for students. For the students who came back face-to-face, did you have any teacher nerves of that first time? You've seen their faces. You've met them. They're online, and then they're coming back, and now they have on a mask. Did you have any moments of like, how am I going to remember who's who, some of those favorites? Are you the teacher that looks in the eyes and knows student's eyes, and it doesn't matter? You're going to know them.

Perry: Again, my situation is a little unique because they're in a magnet program, so they're a cohort. They travel through the grade levels together. I'm already having my eyes on them when they're in kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third. So I knew them for the most part. As they gravitate toward me, it's just okay. That's one of the strengths of the program is that we're able to build this community with one another. But at the same time, I didn't know them as learners. I just knew them as people.

We would have conversations, but it wasn't in the structured way of a classroom. And that's a little bit different. Seeing them on Zoom and trying to get an assessment of their personality and socialization practices when all you're doing is seeing their upper body was difficult. I reached out to parents. Communication with parents has doubled for me this year as in previous years. I'm meeting with parents a lot more throughout the week than I did.

What I have noticed also, I know there's this stigma out there about Black fathers and their lack of participation in the educational matters of their child. But because of Zoom and the flexibility of online learning, there's a lot more participation and engagement around there. I think it's always been there, but they just participate differently.

Noelle: Right. Just the pandemic has had us all look at our children differently and the things that they know. Perry, I want to ask you, and I ask every teacher, I'm walking into class, I need to be hype, I need to be ready, what walk-up song is playing as I'm walking into class?

Perry: Oh, man. Let's see. It would probably be something by Kendrick Lamar. That would be something that I think inspires me. I also am a big fan of Lupe Fiasco, who's out of Chicago. That would be some music that you would possibly hear. Let's see. Let's see. There's just so much. Stevie Wonder all day long. If I had to choose one, it would probably be Stevie Wonder.

Noelle: I am so glad, Perry, that you've been a guest on Teachers in America. Thank you. Thank you, Perry.

Perry: Let me just thank you for this opportunity as well. My passion is connecting. I love connecting with people. It is my hope that as a society, we continue to connect with one another in ways that move beyond the superficial, but we're also respecting what one another is bringing to the conversations. For me, that is what I strive to do as a classroom teacher is to do more connecting through just active listening. I really appreciate the time that you will have taken just to get my thoughts and opinions about my practice.

If I said anything that might have been out of what people were expecting, I am a work in progress, and I'm always trying to learn new things to grow. I just want to leave it at that. Thank you.

Noelle: Well said. Thank you, Perry.

Hey friends, it is back to school season. As I think back and listen to Perry's episode again, I want to always remember and reflect on the importance of listening, having those qualities that we know are our strengths and using those to our advantage. So Perry was a DJ. He has a voice. He has an ability to hear those hooks and he knows how to grab the audience.

So let's think about that. How are we going to use our strengths as we go into the classroom? Let's, no matter what, get out there and make those relationships. And as Perry reminded us too, let's not always think about what might have not been great with our experience, but let's use that again to catapult us into a great experience with our students.

Let's reflect on the one teacher who did make a difference. And even though pedagogy and times may have changed, what can we take from our relationship that we had with that teacher to make us an even better teacher. So just like any great DJ, just like any great teacher, let's get back out there. Let's influence. Let's listen, and let's get our groove on. Until the next episode, your friend, Noelle.

Lish: If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the Teachers in America podcast, please email us at shaped@hmhco.com. Be the first to hear new episodes of Teachers in America, by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you enjoy today's show, please rate, review, and share it with your network. You can find the transcript of this episode on our Shaped blog by visiting hmhco.com/shaped. The link is in the show notes. Teachers in America is produced by HMH. Thanks again for listening.